Each character in a novel helps create the overall impact and meanings of the novel. If there were no stepsisters in Cinderella, for example, think how the story would be less effective. If a story is well-done, then it "needs" all its characters to be effective.
In your opinion, which character, BESIDES the narrator, do you think the novel "needs" the most? In other words, which character, to your mind, has the most impact on helping us understand the overall effects and ideas in this novel?
Deadline: Midnight, 8/15/08.
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68 comments:
I think that every story in this book was very important but the novel would not be so effective if Norman Bowker wasn’t mentioned. His life after war was one of the examples how some veterans could’ve decided to spend their lives or should I say were forced to… in a way. I mean after he got home from the Vietnam War, his life pretty much was filled with solitude and isolation. “The town seemed remote somehow. (139)” This happens to most veterans after war because they miss out on a lot when they are gone. For example, the girl, Sally, Norman liked was already married, his best friend, Max died by drowning in the lake before the war, and his father seemed to be watching sports on television. “Sally was married and Max was drowned and his father was at home watching baseball on national TV. (139)” Even if he had other friends, they either moved out of town or they were just busy with other things. “…and most of Norman Bowker’s friends were living in Des Moines or Sioux City, or going to school somewhere, or holding down jobs. (139)” Norman Bowker writes a letter to his war buddy, Tim O’Brien and tells him about his life and how he is so lonely with nothing to do. He writes, “…Tim …write a story about a guy who feels like he got zapped over in that shithole. A guy who cant get his act together and just drives around town all day and cant think of any damn place to go and doesn’t know how to get here anyway. This guy wants to talk about it, but he can’t… (157)”
This character was important because this character wasn’t able to share his experiences and opinions with his close ones and didn’t know what to do in life after the war. Tim describes the letter that Norman had sent him. He says, “I received a long, disjointed letter in which Bowker described the problem of finding a meaningful use for his life after the war.” This letter was really a clue to what Norman was feeling and he really needed help but I guess he never got it. In the end, he kills himself and that shows that if people don’t let out their feelings in any way and store all the good and bad memories in their minds, especially of war, then they might do things that are unimaginable like how Norman Bowker did. “…Norman Bowker, who three years later (1978) hanged himself in the locker room of a YMCA in his hometown in central Iowa. (155)” So, the character of Norman Bowker shows how, war veterans can get left out by life and they just lose it. If this character wasn’t mentioned then we wouldn’t be able to see the other side of a war veteran. For example, you get to know the good side of the war by the narrator Tim O’Brien because he writes after he comes back from war which eventually helps him to relax and express himself and then, the story of Norman Bowker, shows you how some veterans think too deep about war happenings and they just don’t appear to be themselves anymore. Tim thinks that writing really helped him because he can do it naturally and get all the stuff that’s inside of him. He says, “Telling stories seemed a natural, inevitable process, like clearing the throat. (157)” Then he goes on talking about how writing really helped him to separate himself with the incidents that happened in the war. He writes, “ …the act of writing had led me through a swirl of memories that might have otherwise have ended in paralysis or worse. By telling stories, you objectify your own experience. You separate it from yourself. (158)”
I agreed with Sana that Norman Bowker is the very effective to the novel because his life after the war was fully isolated. When O'Brien received the letter from Norman Bowker, The letter described that "Bowker had problem of finding a meaningful use for his life after the war." (157) This is important because he had described how the war had changed him and how he felt after coming back from the war, everything changed while he was in war. He also wrote that "there's no place to go. Not just in this lousy little town. In general . My life, i mean. It's almost like I got killed over in Nam...Hard to describe." (156) Even though Norman Bowker did not died in war, but he flet that his life was over while he was in Nam and it doesn't matter to him or not living in the town. Norman Bowker also described that he liked Tim O'Brien's first book and it brought back all the memories to him during the war. "the book brought back all kinds of memories, the villes and paddies and rivers, and how he recognized most of the characters, including himself, even though almost all of the names were changed." (157)This character is important because it described his experiences and feeling after and before the war. Norman Bowker's letter had an effect on O'Brien's novel and all the emotional core came directly from Norman Bowker's letter. All things that have changed after war had lead Norman bowker to hung himself in a locker room of a YMCA in his hometown, central Iowa. He wanted to reveals his feeling to his friend O'brien and the way he felt about Kiowa's death and how he felt guilty about his death. In Norman's life, he seems left out and lost after the war, but nobody had helped him, so he decided to hung himself and tells his buddy tim about the way he felt.
This is Laura Hernandez.
I agree with both Sara and Chung Tai on Norman Bowker, besides the narrator, being the character most needed. One of the things that makes this character important is the way his life is used to describe most effects after the war. After the war the narrator started writing only war stories as if a way to express himself, “Telling stories seemed a natural, inevitable process, like clearing the throat. (pg.157)” The war is what he can’t forget and even if he tries there are always things that remind him, though he found his outlet, “But the thing about remembering is that you don’t forget. You take your material where you find it, which is in your life, at the intersection of past and present. (pg.34)” Norman Bowker couldn’t find peace. He couldn’t live his life after the war like others. He wrote to Tim, “…there’s no place to go. Not just in this lousy little town. In general. My life, I mean. It’s almost like I got killed over in Nam…Hard to describe. That night when Kiowa got wasted, I sort of sank down into the sewage with him…Feels like I’m still in deep shit. (pg.156)” The post-trauma of that event was more then he could handle. The narrator has there of Kiowa’s death but he didn’t dwell on it like Norman. The letter that he wrote to Tim was a cry for help, “A guy who can’t get his act together and just drivers around town all day and can’t think of any damn place to go and doesn’t know how to get there anyway…This guy wants to talk about it, but he can’t…If you want, you can use the stuff in this letter. (pg.157)” Norman Bowker awfully wanted to brag and tell his stories to everyone in his town at every possible change that he could, and he did but just couldn’t. “If Sally had not been married, or if his father were not such a baseball fan, it would have been a good time to talk. (pg.141)” Norman thought none would care or bother to listen and made excuses not to talk. Tim O’Brien made Norman Bowker to help understand how most veterans come out after the war. Either they find a way to move on with life or they think about it to the point of driving them to unthinkable things, “…Norman Bowker, who three years later (1978) hanged himself in the locker room of a YMCA in his hometown in central Iowa. (155)” A positive and negative outcome varies depending on how someone is willing to overcome it.
Hi, I'm Sana Parveen.
I know that Norman Bowker was one of the most expressed character by the author but there are other important characters in the book as well. So, if we all read other people's comments first and then comment, we would get a lot of different points of views and different ideas. I'm saying this because then we don't have to circle around the same theme and same point of view, repeatedly. Also, it would help out the new students to comment by giving them a variety of ideas to comment on. Thank you.
Hi it's Nancy Catalan.
I'm not going to disagree with the others and say that Norman Bowker is not important, but in my opinion i believe that kiowa is the most need charater besides O'brien. Kiowa death is very significant in this novel. It is mentioned various times. Kiowa himself played a important part in the lives of the soldiers at one point. Kiowas death made jimmy cross feel guilty, because he felt that he left a very important man die. Jimmy Lieutant takes the time to attempt and write a letter to his kiowa's father. ("Lieutenant Jimmy cross felt something tighten inside him. In the letter..." pg 169) This shows that jimmy want to apologize showing kiowa and his family respect. Also, Kiowa consuls O'Brien when he feels terrible of killing a man.( " 'I'll tell you the straight truth,' he said. 'The guy was death the second he stpped on the trail...." pg 129) This shows that Kiowa was someone who pushed those in the war to move foward and be stong when they thought they lost hope. Without him O'Brien would have not got over it, not that he fully did, but he tried to block it and move on because of the words kiowa told him. Kiowa was also O'briens best friend.
Also, Kiowa death made Norman Bowker feel guilty. (" 'The truth,'Norman Bowker would've said., "is I let the guy go.' 'Maybe the he was already gone''He wasn't.'" pg 153-154).
Kiowas death is so significant because it sort of in a way a symbol of life in war. How in one second your life could end at any moment. I think thats the reason it hits the soldiers bad. Because the one person who is strong could also die. Kiowa showed them that war is not a game it's serious. and some things are inevitable.
I'm Brian Johnson
I kind of disagree with everyone on Norman Bowker being the most important character to the novel. I personally believe the most important character besides the main is Linda. Throughout the novel there's a lot of repetition of memories,death of friends, and fake memories, the "first man the narrator killed", or imagination. Through the story of the character of Linda we finally understand why these repetitions are constantly used, to make the story more real and the people who were dead alive. "The thing about a story is that you dream it as you tell it, hoping that others might then dream along with you, and in this way MEMORY and IMAGINATION and LANGUAGE combine to make spirits in the head"(230). This also adds to the nostalgic tone that is presented by
most of the novel. Linda's character is a summary of this. After she dies the narrator dreams her back to life because he doesn't want her to be dead as she and he were in love. Norman Bowker was a major character to Tim O'Brien on a moral scale not the scale of the novel. Somewhat.
Hope my thoughts came across clear.
This is Ashley Hart.
I agree with Brian on the fact that Norman Bowker wasn't the most important character in the novel and I also agree that Linda was very important because she shows the reader that death is an imprtant topic to the narrarator. The narrarator keeps her alive so that he doesn't forget but I don't agree that Linda is the most important character in the novel. In my opinion Elroy, the old man in the beginning of the story, is the most important character in the story because without him there would be no story. Elroy takes the narrarator in to the Tip Top Lodge because he sees that the narrarator is pondering something but doesn't engage with him until nearly the end of his stay at the Tip Top when he takes him out onto the lake(pg.56) where the narrarator is free to escape to Canada. Without Elroy the narrarator may have finished his run to Canada and inevitably avoided being drafted into the Vietnam War. Elroy plays the decision making part of the narrarator by taking him onto that lake. He forces the narrarator to see that if he runs away he will be embarrassed for the rest of his life. "That's part of it, no doubt, but what embarrasses me much more, and always will, is the paralysis that took me heart."(Pg.57)Elroy took him there to show him that he was making the wrong decsion by running and without even saying anything helped the narrarator make his decision which put him in the war and brought the stories from his fellow soldiers in later chapters.
This is Desiree Portalatin.
The character I think is most important besides the narrator is Bob “Rat” Kiley. Kiley somewhat reminds me of Tim. Kiley is the medic of the group, always there to help his friends in need. He is also a story teller, like Tim, but exaggerates the stories sometimes to keep a person’s interests. Kiley is a very caring person. He shows this in the letter he wrote to Curt Lemon’s sister. He explains to her how he loved Curt as his best friend and how it was a tragic that he past away. “Rat sits down and writes a letter to the guy’s sister. Rat tells her what a great brother she had, how together the guy was, a number one pal and comrade,” (p. 67). Despite his kind-gesture in writing to Curt’s sister, she never responded to Kiley’s letter.
Losing a friend makes you do crazy things. Kiley shot a baby buffalo for the pain he felt when Curt died. “He opened up a can of C rations, pork and beans, but the baby buffalo wasn’t interested. Rat shrugged. He stepped back and shot it through the right front knee,” (p. 78). He kept shooting the baby buffalo into it was in chunks. This scene shows how Kiley murdered the baby buffalo out of revenge for his friend’s death. He disturbed nature, killing an innocent animal. This is important because it shows a possible outcome due to one’s death in a war.
If it wasn’t for Rat Kiley, Tim could have died during the war. Tim was shot and Kiley came to rescue him and take him into medical care. Tim states, “I was shot twice. The first time, out by Tri Binh, it knocked me against the pagoda wall, and I bounced and spun around and ended up on Rat Kiley’s lap. A lucky thing, because Rat was the medic,” (p. 189). Kiley would always come back to check on him. If it was any other medic, they wouldn’t constantly check on Tim like Kiley did. Kiley, besides being a medic, checked on Tim because he was his friend; and that’s what friends do.
Sorry, but I had to disagree with everyone here. Though your points are strong, I still believe Bob "Rat" Kiley was most important.
-Desiree Portalatin
I also agree that Rat Kiley is the most important person in the story because it's as if he is apart of the plot in a desceet way. What I mean is just like when the narrator continues to go back to the idea of what makes a good war story, he uses Rat Kiley as an example of how war stories are told. I think in a way the narrator and Rat foil eachother, because it's like both tell the war stories and it's hard to believe what parts you actually should believe. Also, if Rat wasn't in the story, the story about the guy who brought his girl to war would have been told totally different(89), like Rat Kiley was known for "heating up the truth" and "exagerrating"(89), and it wasn't until the end that you found out that was what the narrator has done.(225)
Also, the narrator uses Rat to describe another perspective of how the war was viewed and how the soiljers felt. The narrator uses Rat to show how people, like himself, are young and like to play around and basically how they aren't ready for war.(69)This is another reason why I believe that Rat foils the narrator because they were too young to be at war, and even though the narrator didn't show it, he felt it and Rat showed it for the both of them.
Hi, it’s Jasmin Ali.
In my opinion, Norman Bowker is a character that the novel needs. He has the most impact on helping us understand the overall effects of the novel. Tim O’Brien is constantly telling us about how he wants us to feel how he felt during the war. Norman Bowker’s story was a way of making us feel just that. The effect of the novel is to give people a perspective on the war and to show how you can’t forget the things that happen there. Norman Bowker was a good example of someone that couldn’t forget. He blamed himself for the death of Kiowa because he did close to nothing when Kiowa sunk into the muck. He regrets this and keeps on saying how he could have gotten the silver star. The seven stars he earned don’t mean much to him anymore. On page 142, Norman imagines himself talking to his father, and says “Well, maybe not. But I had the chance and blew it. The stink, that’s what got to me. I couldn’t take that god damn awful smell.” Norman feels like he can’t talk to anybody about it. He writes a letter to Tim, saying that he should write a book about someone who can’t talk to anybody about his problem. On page 157, Norman Bowker says “What you should do, Tim, is write a story about a guy who feels like he got zapped over in that shit hole. A guy who can’t get his act together and just drives around town all day and can’t think of any damn place to go and doesn’t know how to get there anyway. This guy wants to talk about it, but he can’t…” By having Tim do this, Norman hopes for some kind of closure, to help him getting over Kiowa’s death. Tim writes the story, and Norman notices that he left important things out like Vietnam and Kiowa. Norman continues letting his guilt eat him up inside until one day he commits suicide. “Eight months later he hanged himself. (pg. 160)” Norman is a character this novel needs, because he is a perfect example of someone who was deeply affected by war, and can‘t forget what he did. He wanted people to understand exactly how he felt, which is the same thing Tim wanted us to feel. I agree completely with Chung Tai, Sara, and Laura on the idea that without Norman Bowker, this novel would not have been as effective as it was with him.
Hello I’m Blanca Hernandez,
I also agree with Sara and Chung Tai on Norman Bowker being the character most needed besides the narrator. Throughout the novel we hear about Tim O’Brien’s war stories and how they have affected him, but we also hear Norman Bowker’s experiences through the letter he wrote to Tim after the war. “The letter covered seventeen handwritten pages, its tone jumping from self-pity to anger to irony to guilt to a kind of feigned indifference. He didn’t know what to feel.” (Pg. 156) This shows the effects that the war had on Bowker. O’Brien notices that Bowker was not the same man he was before or during the war just by the tone of the letter. Bowker is a necessary character for the novel because we get to hear about the solitary life of some war veterans. “And I don’t feel that anybody mistreats me or anything, except sometimes people act too nice, too polite, like they’re afraid they might ask the wrong question… But I shouldn’t bitch. One thing I hate – really hate – is all those whiner-vets. Guys sniveling about how they didn’t get any parades. Such absolute crap.” (Pg. 156) This is very reproachful of Bowker, he doesn’t want to complain anymore. Another quote the solitary life Bowker lives after the war; “A guy who can’t get his act together and just drives around town all day and can’t think of any damn place to go and doesn’t know how to get there anyway.” (Pg. 157) It is important for the novel to describe the life of war veterans and with the character of Norman Bowker, O’Brien has succeeded in telling the life of a war veteran.
gina sewell
I agree with Nancy on Kiowa being the most important character but I think he is the most important character for different reasons. Kiowa has traits that no one else in the book has. He is kind and understanding plus has morals. He was religious and he tried to live by the bible. When Ted Lavender died Kiowa was sad because he didn’t feel bad for his death. “He wanted to share the man’s pain, he wanted to care as Jimmy Cross cared.” Pg. 18. No one really was sadden by the death of Lavender expect for Cross but Kiowa was the only person who felt guilty for the way he acted. Kiowa was always there to give advice to Tim whenever he needed it. When Tim first saw a corpse in the war Kiowa tried to talk to him and make him feel better because it was obvious that it bothered Tim. Also he consoled Tim when he killed the Vietnamese man. Kiowa, like Nancy said, is Tim’s best friend. It was hard for everyone when Kiowa died. In the novel we learn he was a good person. The way he died was horrible and it wasn’t something a person like him deserved. His death shows the brutality of war. It could in an instant take anyone’s life. It shows us how war is cruel and evil. It kind of also makes it seem like war is pointless because it doesn’t do anything but take the lives of people who are good. If Kiowa wasn't in the novel we wouldn't be able to see this side of war. We wouldn't think of it as such a tragedy. Yes there are others that die but I don't think any of them have such an impact on the reader as Kiowa had. There isn't a character that we like as much as Kiowa.
Hey Im Kyle
I'm downing any other post because all characters are important no matter how small or "impactful" they are but the one that i say is the most important is Lieutenant Cross because he is the first person we actually get to know and gets interested. He was first character introduced and the one that stuck with me till the end. Because he was the first person this provides the first and lasting impression of the book in whole. With in the first few pages of book we see him show various emotions. We see have love, anger, and remorse. At one point he had was feeling love and anger at the same time(pg 16-17). He brought a realism to the reader and caused us the relate to him.
Hello, this is Alicia Garcia
I agree that both Norman Bowker and Rat Kiley are important. I agree with Joanna and Desiree Portalatin. Kiley shows a lot of characteristics of Tim however i don't think he more important than Norman Bowker. Yes he may create some meaning for the novel but how much impact does the character Kiley overall create? How much does he prove the importance of war storytelling? Not much in my opinion. Same questions go for the character of Linda. The most important and needed character is Norman Bowker. Just like Sana and Chung Tai mentioned, Bowker wasn't able give out his stories of the war in Vietnam. The story played with the tense which is very critical for the character. There was a lot of 'He would've this he would've that'. For example when the narrator says, "There were bubbles where Kiowa's head should've been...He would've talked about this, and how he grabbed Kiowa by the boot and tried to pull him out"(pg149). Bowker had nothing to do and roamed around town over and over. He had no one to see. He came from the past for that town. He would've liked to tell the stories but he couldn't because he had no one. He wants to let it all out and later writes a letter to Tim and tells about his life and his situation. It was impossible for Norman to forget about it. He craved to tell his stories. It's like when you want to cry and you can't and end up with that big gulp in your throat and just want to let it out. The author agrees: "Telling stories seemed a natural, inevitable process, like clearing the throat"(pg.157). Also: "But the thing about remembering is that you don’t forget. You take your material where you find it, which is in your life, at the intersection of past and present" (pg34). That gulp lead Norman to suicide. He came in with a different view of the world. He experience death most of the time. It wasn't like a party he went to and wants to talk about how it was, this was a war and he came back alive. A soldier brings alot of stories from a war and want the listener to feel the war and be able to imagine every detail just like what Tim O'Brien is doing with "The Things They Carried". With what other character can O'Brien really prove how significant it is telling war stories? Norman Bowker showed the consequences of not telling war stories and how important it is for a soldier who comes back home. Tim O'Brien let it all out in this book.
Besides the narrator, the character that the novel needs the most is Norman Bowker. I believe Norman had the most impact on helping us understand the ideas of the novel. As mentioned in my last post, I felt The Things They Carried showed how war can take a great toll on someone�s life. Norman Bowker was proof. The author took the time to completely explain, in plain English, how Norman�s life was different once the war was over. �I received a long, disjointed letter in which Bowker described the problem of finding meaningful use for his life after the war� (pg 155). Things were so bad for Norman that he ended up committing suicide. �Three years later hanged himself in the locker room� (pg154). What happened to Kiowa is what he carried with him the most. He would drive around all day with no where to go, He said he wanted to talk about it but couldn�t. Norman�s story has to be, in my opinion the clearest evidence of what the novel was trying to say. That is why Norman is important. Without him I would probably be still scratching my head trying to figure out the point of the story. I disagree with those who said Linda or Rat I didn�t feel their stories had the most impact on helping me understand the effects and ideas of the novel
In my opinion, the character the novel needs the most is Norman Bowker. Although I agree with Kyle that Lt. Jimmy Cross is important because he is the first character we meet, and he is the one that sets the stage for the rest of the novel, I still believe that Norman Bowker is the most important.
The author of this novel created a narrator that can’t seem to stop remembering. One of these memories that he keeps bringing up is the memory of Kiowa dying. Norman Bowker never seemed to let go of the fact that Kiowa died, and he always thought that it was his fault. The point of this novel, I believe, is to show the reader the effects war has on a soldier. The soldiers in this novel didn’t just carry weapons and war gear, some of them also carried with them the grief, and feeling of guilt of possibly being the cause of someone’s death. In this case, Norman Bowker was the one who showed us the most of what war can lead a person to do. He also has more of a connection with the narrator. Norman wrote letters to the narrator. “ I received a long, disjointed letter in which Bowker described the problem of finding a meaningful use for his life after the war.”(p.155) After the war, Norman didn’t really know what to do with himself. He wrote on p. 156 “ there’s no place to go. Not just in this lousy little town. In general. My life, I mean. it’s almost like I got killed over in Nam…Hard to describe. That night when Kiowa got waster, I sort of sank down into the sewage with him…Feels like I’m still in deep shit.” After the war, Bowker was never the same man as before. He wanted to speak, and tell his stories, but he never found the way to do it. While he would drive around town in his father’s car, he would imagine talking to his father telling him about his experiences at war.
Norman Bowker’s life changed after the war. He didn’t find meaning to his life. So ultimately, the memories of the war drove him to kill himself. The guilt of Kiowa’s death drove him to kill himself. “ He’d been playing basketball at the Y; after two hours, he went off for a drink of water; he used a jump rope; his friends found him hanging from a water pipe.”(p.160). Without Norman Bowker us as readers wouldn’t get the full effect of what war could lead a person to do. The memories of war are something that a person has to carry for the rest of their life, no matter if the memories are good, or like for Norman, if they are bad.
Magaly Franco. ;]
I agree with those who say Norman Bowker was the most necessary character. Like a few people such as Sana and Alicia have already stated, Bowker represents people who never found a way to release any bad emotions and instead allowed their emotions to overwhelm them up to point where they can’t take it anymore. These people suffer many terrible consequences such as suicide like Bowker committed. Bowker can be seen as a foil to O’Brien because they were involved in the same situation but reacted to it differently when it was over. After the war, Bowker spent most of his time very depressed which makes us realize that in contrast to him; O'Brien's constant writing of books is in reality healthy in comparison. O’Brien is an example of someone who learns to deal with their emotions in healthier way and is able to lead a pretty normal life and as O’Brien’s foil, Bowker, is the one who makes us realize that. This goes to show that even if you can't talk to someone about your problems; writing is another great option which might save your life.
Bowker is also an important character because he is the one that made O’Brien himself realize why he writes so many stories, “Norman Bowker’s letter hit me hard. For years I’d felt a certain smugness about how easily I had made the shift from war to peace…I did not look on my work as therapy, and still don’t. Yet when I received Norman Bowker’s letter, it occurred to me that the act of writing had led me through the swirl of memories that might otherwise have ended in paralysis or worse,” (p. 157-158). As I’ve said in Blog #1, “The Things They Carried” seems more like a conversation with a war vet who is trying to share his experience, his memories, with us than a book with a moral, “A true war story is never moral. It does not instruct, nor encourage virtue, nor suggest models of proper human behavior, nor restrain men from doing the things men have always done. If it seems moral do not believe it,” (p. 68). I can now see why he wrote it like that; his intention was to “clear his throat” or in other words to make sense of and release those emotions that are haunting him, “Telling stories seemed a natural, inevitable process, like clearing the throat,” (p. 157). Story telling is what the book was centered on and Norman Bowker’s part in the book defines the importance of story telling.
Another big issue in the book about story telling besides its advantages is how what happens in story does not necessarily have to be what truly happened in order to capture the true point and the true emotions. This is also emphasized through Norman Bowker when O’Brien chooses to combine his experience with Bowker’s experience. In the chapter, “Speaking of Courage,” we read about Bowker riding around a lake in his car daydreaming of the war stories he would tell his loved ones. One of the stories he tells is about how he tried saving Kiowa but failed because of the smell. Its not till the last line of the next chapter, “Notes,” that we learn that part about Kiowa never really happened to him, “In the interests of truth, however, I want to make it clear that Norman Bowker was in no way responsible for what happened to Kiowa. Norman did not experience a failure of nerve that night. He did not freeze up or lose the Silver Star for valor. That part of the story is my own,” (p. 160-161). We then hear O’Brien’s version of the story. Although both stories are very different, not to mention one is in present tense while the other is in both present and past tense, we can all agree that we felt both of their pain. Through both stories we can learn to understand what Tim O’Brien meant when he said, “Almost everything else is invented. But it’s not a game. It’s a form. Right here, now, as I invent myself, I’m thinking of all I want to tell you abut why this book is written as it is. For instance I want to tell you this…But listen. Even that story is made up. I want you to feel what I felt. I want you to know why story-truth is truer sometimes than happening-truth,” (p. 179).
Therefore I believe that Norman Bowker is the most necessary character besides Tim O’Brien in order to understand this book. Without him we wouldn’t truly know what O’Brien means when he refers to true war stories that include false information and we definitely wouldn’t be able to appreciate their importance.
Hi, this is Charlene Poindexter.
Every character in this novel has given the story a unique perspective by contributing to the book in some way, but I believe the most meaningful character is Kiowa. I say this because he had a place in most of the soldier’s hearts, especially Jimmy Cross and Tim O’Brien’s.
When Kiowa died, Lieutenant Cross had a hard time arranging a decent letter to his father. He thought about what type of individual he was. “Kiowa had been a splendid human being, the very best, intelligent and gentle and quiet-spoken. Very brave, too. And decent”. He was also a spiritual person, “he never went anywhere without an illustrated New Testament”,(pg. 164).
Then Cross started to blame himself for Kiowa’s death. “What he should’ve done”, he told himself, “was follow his first impulse. No excuses. A simple mistake. That’s all it was, a mistake, but it had killed Kiowa”,(pg.168). This leads the reader to believe there was a personal connection and in a way, Cross had suffered too.
Kiowa was O’Brien’s best friend, mentor, and also his inspiration. When he died, Tim felt like a part of him also died in the field, along with his belief in himself “as a man of some small dignity and courage,” (pg.184). Kiowa was there for him when no one else when no one else cared. For example, when Tim “was brand new to the war”,(pg.226), the platoon visited a wrecked village that was deserted except for an old man who was deceased. The platoon took turns shaking the man’s hand and greeting him. They tried to make Tim do the same but he refused. Kiowa congratulated him later on by saying, “you did a good thing today. That shaking hands crap, it isn’t decent. The guys’ll hassle you for a while- especially Jensen- but you just keep saying no”,(pg.227).
He was there for O’Brien when he killed a man on the battlefield. Azar made degrading remarks toward Tim saying, “Oh, man, you fuckin’ trashed the fucker. You scrambled his sorry self, look at that, you did, you laid him out like Shredded fuckin’ Wheat”, (pg.125). Kiowa reassured him by saying, “Tim, it’s a war. The guy wasn’t Heidi- he had a weapon, right? Maybe you better lie down a minute. Take it slow. Just go wherever the spirit takes you”, (pg.126).
I feel Kiowa had a lot to do with Tim’s mental stability. If Kiowa was never there to help Tim through those trying times, how would he have managed? Where would he be now? How would he survive mentally?
I agree with Ashley in some ways. I do believe the old man, (Elroy), is an important character. He is obviously important to Tim. On (pg.48), he says, “ The man who opened the door that day is the hero of my life. Blurt it out- the man saved me. He offered exactly what I needed, without questions, without words at all”. Elroy is the one person at that time who Tim needed in his life, a person who did not judge, nor push him to do what they felt was right. He let him make his own decisions and gave him personal space. Without Elroy, there would probably be no story. Or should I say, no war story.
I agree with everyone who feels that Norman Bowker is the character that the novel needs to explain the understanding of the novel. The character that the novel needs is Norman Bowker. Norman is an also a veteran of the Vietnam War. I think Norman is very important because the war had a big affect on him to. And one of the overall ideas is to explain how the war had an effect on the soldier who served in it. The narrator says he receives a letter from Bowker saying “I received a long, disjointed letter in which Bowker described the problem of finding a meaningful use for his life after the war” (p.153). In the letter Bowker also says “That night when Kiowa got wasted, I sort of sank down into the sewage with him… Feels like I’m still in deep shit” (p.156). In this part of the letter it seems that Jimmy Cross isn’t the only person who feels like he is responsible for someone’s death. The last thing that makes Bowker a need in the novel is his feels toward himself. When Tim says “I had made the shift from war to peace” (p157). It is a totally different feeling of how Tim O’Brien feels about himself after the war and Bowker's being his life is no worth living for after the war.
Hi, this is Tiffany Tsang.
Out of all the entries I have seen so far, I would have to agree with Brian Johnson. The most important character in this novel is Linda from my perspective. The reason why I say this is because Linda was someone who Tim O'Brien thought about throughout the whole book most of the time. Also, we never even figured out that she died till a we were a bit into the book. Being in love and at war, we would constantly think of our loved ones and things that haunt us most of the time. There were many other characters that were important in the novel because every character plays a little important role in the novel. Most of Tim's recalled memories were to give us the feeling of the war and how it feels to be in his position. When you're in love during war, you look at things in a different perspective. Tim often tries to make Linda come back to life because that is someone who he cherish and wishes to be with. The fact that Tim is afraid of death but at the same time he can think of Linda and have the courage to live on.
Like what everyone else had said, Norman Bowker was somewhat a important role but not as much as Linda. Most of the characters that go home after the war are usually solitude and isolated. Tim for one is a example. Throught out the whole book, Tim was usually the one that describes and gives us details about the war and allows us to imagine that we were there. So, therefore Norman Bowker was not the one that really gave us an idea/picture of war.
Hi, this is Nancy Matias.
There are alot of important characters in the novel The Things They Carried by Tim O'Brien. However, I agree with Sana, Alicia and Magaly when they say that one of the most important characters in this novel is Norman Bowker. The reason I believe this is because throughout the novel it seems as if though the narrator has a negative view towards war. He does not believe in the Vietnam war. He "hated the war," (pg.40 line 11) because he believed he was "too good for the war." (pg. 41line 23)He believed "he was above it" he was above a pointless war in where "certain blood was being shed for uncertain reasons (pg. 40 line 14). We not only seem to see war as a negative thing because of the narrator's view on it but also because it caused the death of many people like Kiowa, Curt Lemon, Ted Lavender, etc. The war besides causing all of these things also caused the narrator to turn hateful and seek revenge towards Bobby Jorgenson because he believed that he caused him to become ill and almost die. Not only did the war do all of this, according to the narrator,the war caused him "to grow cold inside, all the illusions gone, all the old ambition and hopes for myself sucked away." (pgs. 184-185 lines 28-30). The war made the narrator lose himself. It caused him "to become to dead"(pg. 80 line 20). It caused him to become obsessed with writing stories about war. To write about the war unconsciously because it had such a huge impact on him an impact that he cannot seem to overcome even though many years have passed by. Just like the war seems to have been a disaster in the narrator's life which destroyed him it is also portrayed as a disaster in the life of Norman Bowker. This character is the perfect example of what the narrator seems to be trying to portray about war through this book. This idea that war causes a loss of self, a sense of pity, and how it is overall destructive because it causes grudges, anger, an obsession that is only hurtful towards a person. It makes them lose themselves because it takes away a persons innocence, allusions,aspirations in life, etc. We see this in Norman Bowker since after the war the narrator mentions how "Bowker had a problem with finding a meaningful use for his life after the war."(pg. 155 lines 7-8) Bowker believed "there was no place to go in life." (pg.156 lines 3-4) Norman believed he "got killed over in Nam..."he felt like he sank down into a sewage with Kiowa."( pg. 156 lines 5-8)The war made Bowker miserable because in a letter he wrote to the narrator his tone went from "self-pity to anger to irony to guilt." (pg. 156 line 10)Norman bowker became "a man who couldn't get his act together and just drives around town all day and can't think of any damn place to go and doesn't know how to get there anyway."(pg.157 lines 1-12)It caused him to drive around alone drinking because he can no longer make something of himself because the war destroyed him. It caused him to hang himself in the locker room of a YMCA in his hometown in central Iowa(pg. 155 lines 27-28)Just like it destroyed Norman it also destroyed the narrator it killed him because it caused him to "talk about it virtually nonstop through his writing" (pg. 157 lines 27-28)even years after his return from it. Through this character we see how war causes a sense of desperation and loss and how for that reason it is a negative thing.
I would have to say that another character that needs to exist in this story is also Linda. I would have to say this because of the fact taht throughout the novel we see how most of the soldiers are tryiing to make things such as war and death not so serious. They are trying to make them seem as if they are really not that bad, trying to bring out the good in all the bad. We constantly see this for instance, through Ted Lavender who "would go to heavy on the tranquilizers and give a soft, spacey smile and say "mellow man. We got ourselves a nice mellow war today." (pg. 35 lines 1-6) We see this through Kiowa who wouldn "teach a rain dance to Rat Kiley and Dave Jensen, the three of them whooping and leaping around barefoot..." (pg. 36 lines 12-14) We see this through " Ted Lavender adopting an orphan puppy." (pg. 36 line 19)The fact that they were young caused them to take part in "lots of pranks and horseplay." (pg. 37 lines 5-6)To them the war was a game they believed "it was a nature hike not even a war."(pg.69 lines 23-24) They played "silly games they invented, games that involved smoke grenades." (pg. 69 lines 27-28)They were trying to take away from the severity of war trying to avoid it by making it a game just like in a war story "when a booby trap explodes, you close your eyes and duck and float outside yourself." (pg. 71 lines 4-6) They are trying to make the death that occurs in the war like Curt Lemon's death by singing "Lemon Tree" as they thrown down the parts of his body." (pg.83 lines 9-10)They are making Curt's death lses intense by saying "the sunglight was killing him and not a rigged 105 round.(pg 84 lines 10-11)The author even says how a war story is never bad it's always about sunlight, dawns, love etc. Linda is a perfect example of how the narrator shows how people try to make bad things less bad by avoiding them. By keeping quiet or taking them as a game. Acting ignorant towards them. We see this through Linda since after she dies she is making death not so bad by telling the narrator "Timmy, stop crying. It doesn't matter."(pg. 238lines 17-18) or by appearing in the narrator's dreams to show him hwo it doesn't matter if she's gone because she's still alive or teaching him that "stories can save us."(pg. 225 line 1)
Hello I'm Erica Castillo,
I agree with Blanca and Sara on Norman Bowker being the most important character beside the narrator. We hear about the war from Tim O'Brien and how it affected him. We also hear about Norman Bowker's experiences from the letters that he wrote Tim after the war. O'Brien said "The letter covered seventeen handwritten pages, its tone jumping from self-pity to anger to irony to guilt to a kind of feigned indifference. He didn't know what to feel. In the middle of the letter, for example, he reproached himself for complaining too much." (pg.156) from what O'Brien said about Bowker letters, I could tell that Bowker is lost. “…Bowker described the problem of finding a meaningful use for his life after the war.”(pg.155) He feels that there is no point in life.
We see how the war affects him. Bowker feels that he missed out in a lot because of the war. Someone he missed out on was Sally. "Sally Kramer, whose pictures he had once carried in his wallet, was one who had married." (pg.139) This had to crush his heart because he really liked Sally. Bowker knows that the war messed his life up. He had friends before the war but now all his friends are gone "...most of Norman Bowker's other friends were living in Des Moines or Sioux City, or going to school somewhere, or holding down jobs." (pg.139) This was an experience that he had to miss out on because of the war.
Bowker couldn't find anything after the war he feels like he got killed in the war when he was at home all alone. "...there's no place to go. Not just in this lousy little town. In general. My life, I mean. It's almost like I got killed over in Nam..."(pg156)
Bowker says it himself “A guy who can’t get his act together and just drives around town all day and can’t think of any damn place to go an doesn’t know how to get there anyways. This guy wants to talk about it but he can’t…” (pg157)
At the very end when he could not face anything he killed himself. “Speaking of Courage was written in 1975 at the suggestion of Norman Bowker, who three years later hanged himself in the locker room of YMCA in his town in central Iowa.”(pg155)
Bowkers the perfect example on some veterans never getting there life back after war and that is very important in this book. We hear more war stories because of Bowker and we know what the soldiers faced and how life is for them after the war. Bowkers reality in the story makes The Things They Carried more real it makes the story better and gives us a new point of view.
Hi, My name is Alexandria Prude and my nomination for the most important character other than the narrator would be Mary Anne Bell, Mark Fossie's girlfriend. The reason I say this is because in the chapter Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong it takes us the reader on the journey of Mary Anne's transformation, it shows us how Vietnam completley changed Mary Anne. She came there a "tall, big bonedblonde.... seventeen years old, fresh out of Cleveland Heights Senior High... long white legs and blue eyes and a complexion like strawberry ice cream (93)." After being there for a while, Mary Anne "quickly fell into the habits of the bush. No cosmetics, no fingernail filing. She stopped wearing jewlery, cut her hair short and wrapped it in a dark green bandanna (98)." Mary Anne went from being this dainty young girl to being one of the guys. She told her boyfriend "I've never been happier in my whole life. Never(99)." It seems to me that it took her to come to Vietnam in order to find herself. Being in Vietnam gave her sense of completion. I think that throughout every one of the soldiers' stories, and their experiences in Vietnam somehow or another, they were transformed or Vietnam made a huge impact in their lives rather good or bad, but I think Vietnam made the greatest impact in Mary Anne's life. Mary Anne says "Sometimes I want to eat this place. Vietnam. I want to swallow the whole country - the dirt, the death- I just want to eat it and have it there inside me...... I feel close to myself (111)." This to me is her realizing what Vietnam has done to her. She likes who she is when she is there. She became another person, or that person always been there, but Vietnam brought it out. She was sucked into Vietnam itself. She said she had an apetite for it, and that's what sucked her in, and that craving, the longing that she had for vietnam is what kept her there.
I still am firm on Mary Anne being the most important characters, but I see where the people that Linda is important is coming from. The fact that Linda is one of the narrator's first encounter with death, i think is important. Him in Linda being in love, and she dying of a brain tumor while both of them are 9 years old shows that O'Brien had to coupe with deat at an early age. It made a great impact on his life later on when he was writing these stories and was able to reflect upon them.
This is Cesar Servin.
I agree with Ashley that Elroy Berdahl was essential to this book. I don't disagree with the rest since I also think the book needs all its characters to give us those experiences, of human behavior and emotions, when involved in war. All these experiences were made possible by a special event in the book in the Tip Top Lodge. The author mentions Elroy as his hero, "The man who opened the door that day is the hero of my life...-the man saved me. He offered exactly what I needed, without questions, without any words at all". (pg. 48) He was his hero for offering comfort during his time of need. He kindly took him in and gave him support, even though he knew O'brien had intentions to back out of the war. O'brien was in the verge of fleeing off to Canada when they had went fishing, close to the border. Right then O'brien imagined an audience that viewed him as a coward and a traitor. This greatly changed his decision on leaving. What made that audience more realistic to O'brien was the presence of Elroy. "And yet by his presence, his mute watchfulness, he made it real. He was the true audience. He was a witness, like God, or like the gods, who look on in absolute silence as we live our lives, as we make our choices or fail to make them." He helped him get a sense of that audience more realistic as he imagined it. The book would be altered completely if it wasn't for that experience in the Tip Top Lodge. That time during that event helped O'brien decide to go to war. All those experiences and stories would never have happened if it wasn't for that event with Elroy. The thought of embarassment was what got O'brien to go to war. That thought of embarassment was created when he imagined an audience looking at him as a coward and traitor. "It had nothing to do with morality. Embarrassment, that's all it was. And right then I submitted. I would go to the war-I would kill and maybe die-because I was embarrassed not to." (pg.59) That imaginable audience was also a contribution by Elroy's presence. O'brien might have fled to Canada, and the war stories and experiences would not be told by him. If it wasn't for the Tip Top Lodge event, if Elroy Berdahl had not opened the door, O'brien wouldn't have his stories.
This is Thaddeus (Ted) Nowak
In the Things They Carried by Tim O’Brien, many characters and their stories are told. Each of these stories is very important as they grant the reader an insight on the war and its effects. Among these stories and characters however, Norman Bowker is the most important.
The war had changed life drastically for Norman Bowker. There are three chapters in the book based on his story. His return from the war had made him realize all that he had missed while he was gone. He felt guilt for the death of Kiowa. “I’d write it myself except I can’t ever find any words,” (Pg. 157 lines 14-15). Everything he had experienced, he had a hard time letting it out to others because he knew they would not understand. “The town seemed remote somehow,” (Pg. 139 line 20) - This showed that he simply does not fit in anymore with his old town. The narrator always says how Bowker “would” have told the story, but we see that he never does. Bowker keeps all the bad experiences locked up inside him. He thinks of his apparent cowardice at the Song Tra Bong and how he had let Kiowa die. “The truth is I let the guy go,” (Pg. 153 lines 30-31). It stays on his mind and haunts him forever. Later on we see that Bowker killed himself. We can be left to assume that Bowker never made peace with himself over what happened.
The reason Bowker is needed the most in this novel is because he represents the scars war can have on anyone. Everyone who has been in war has a story that they will always remember. The narrator remembers many moments that he has obviously not settled himself with. Bowker had guilt biting at him even though the war was over. He had practically no one to go to for speaking about his thoughts. No one would be able to understand him. His suicide shows what can happen to those who still struggle with their pasts. Norman Bowker was ashamed of his “cowardice” and could not come to peace with what happened. Through Bowker, we see that war can scar someone forever not only physically, but mentally.
Hi, I'm Katarzyna Razniak.
In this novel, I belive the character that is needed most, aside from the narrator, is Linda. I agree with Brian in the sense that Linda is brought in as an explanationc for the repetition of stories. In the chapter that the Linda story is explained the narrator states that "there is the illusion of aliveness" (pg. 230) in stories. He initially began dreaming up stories to make the love of his life "come back" from the dead which also helped him cope with the war.
The narrator is able to bring back the lives of those he had lost in the past, and that all started with Linda. He says that "as a writer now, I want to save Linda's life. Not her body-her life." (pg. 236)The desperate tone that this line evokes is also present in other parts of the book where the narrator wishes he could be more herioc, and in a way he does bring salvation as a hero would through his stories where he characters seem alive.
It is hard to dismiss Linda as just a minor character since the rest of the book is mainly about war and post-war. She must be signigifcant since she stands out in the crowd of characters. The narrator also compares how he dealth with Linda's death and Vietman. "In Vietnam, too, we had ways of making the dead seem not quite so dead." (pg.238) His situation with Linda worked as a coping mechanism for his future in the war where he didnt have to resort to offensive acts such as manipulating dead bodies into positions that made them seem alive because he could do it in his stories.
Hello, this is Miriam Meza.
In my opinion the character,besides the narrator, who has the most impact on helping us understand the overall effects and ideas in this novel is Bob Kiley, also known as Rat.
I agree with Joanna with the narrator using Kiley as an example when war is spoken.In the chapter "How to Tell a True War Story" the narrator starts off the chapter with,"It's true. I had a buddy in Vietnam. His name was Bob Kiley,But everybody called him Rat."(pg. 67) In my opinion adding Kiley as the introduction to the chapter conveys that the true story about war is going to be told with a "real" soldier. I also agree with Joanna's interpretation that the narrator and rat are somewhat alike with both attending the war at a young age. Which also shows why Kiley is an important character since he reflects the narrator. By the narrator saying "I had a buddy"(pg. 67), this shows how Kiley had a close relationship and even shared characteristics.
Also, Kiley is a important character because he's introduced to us in the beginning of the novel as an immature young man."Or Kiowas teaching a rain dance to Rat Kiley and Dave Jensen, the three of them whooping and leaping around barefoot...Rat thought about it and said,"Yeah, but where's the rain?""(pg. 36) In this passage Kiley shows his immaturity.However, becomes and important character since his transition into maturity is shown and becomes a well known character for us.
Another reason for Kiley being an important character is because he saved Tim's life which shows how even though he was a young soldier he was able to manage and even become a "hero." "I was shot twice....lucky thing, because Rat was the medic. He tied on a compress and told me to ease back, then he ran off toward the fighting...Thank god for Rat Kiley."(pg. 189) According to this passage, Kiley was seen as a caring person for taking care of Tim but also as a brave soldier for continuing on with the war.
Overall, Bob Rat Kiley is an important character since he becomes a well known character for us and also reflects the narrator.
Hello, my name is Jamie Chan.
I would have to agree with Nancy Catalan. The reason being is that Kiowa or Kiowa's death was constantly reminded. In result of that is what made the soldiers feel guilty. Making it seem like that can't forget what had happened. Just because he was killed for a stupid mistake. He was a big part of the group he contributed a lot while he was still alive which is why the soldiers thought that he didn't deserve to be the one to be killed. In page 172 they were talking about how he died and the reason was that he died for showing a picture of a girl that wasn’t even his girl at all. Also they wouldn’t send a letter to Kiowa’s father if he wasn’t important at all. Which they worked on right away in page 173. Another reason would be that they all blamed it on themselves. After finishing the book many years later they went back to Vietnam to visit Kiowa’s death site in remembrance. (Pg 179- 188)
This is Ernesto Gomez
I agree with Alexandria in that Mary Anne is an important character and makes the novel very effective. The reason why she does make it effective is beacause she shows us what war can do to a person. In her case, it is on a positive way. This is because she falls in love with the war. "The war intrigued her. The land, too, and the mystery." (96) Unlike most characters that take the war in a negative way, that is by experiencing death of others and bad memories, she takes it on a postitive way. That is why she is an interesting character and makes the novel effective by showing the effects of war from a different perspective. For example she says, "Everything I want...is right here."(99) Also she says, "To tell the truth, I've never been happier in my whole life. Never."(99) Of course, at the end she turned out to be war maniac. She ended up pretty bad, but still she made the novel much more effective by showing another side of the effects of war.
This is Alexandra Castro and ! agree with Miriam that Bob Killey or "RAT" was an important character to the novel.
Rat helps to reveal a different aspect of the war.. An aspect of the war where friendships are created, childness is common and anger is release without much understanding..
Rat had created a friendship with a fellow soldier, Curt Lemon. In the chapter " How a True War Story is Told." Rat is described to have written a Lemon's sister a letter after he died.
page67. " Rat tells her what a great brother she had, how together the guy was, a number one pal and comrade.."
This shows readers that even though Lemon was killed and soldiers are thought to be heartless (since they are trained to killed).. Rat was sensitive and compassionate enough to write his sister a letter to show how much he appreciated Lemon's companionship. This shows that the people in the war were not heartless.. Because many of them are not ready to fight or kill .. and are only forced to perform in combat.. not because they support the war.. as O'brien had revealed on page 40.
I also agree with Joanna as to the idea that Rat age reveals to us that the soldiers in the war were often to young.. and naive as on page 70 they were described to fooling around.
" Curt Lemon and Rat Kiley were playing catch with smoke grenades."
Rat character also reveals to the impact the war can have on person when they lose someone they really cared about.
On page 78-79 Rat was described to have shot a baby water buffalo.
" " he put the rifle muzzle up against the mouth and shot the mouth away. Nobody said much . the whole platoon stood there watching, feeling all kids of things, but there wasn't a great deal of pity fro the baby water buffaloo. ... Rat Kiley had lost his best friend in the world.. ...He shot the water buffalo.."
he was releasing his anger in an unreasonable matter.This shows how people aren't ready to face and accept the situations they are in
when they are in the war.
[Hi, this is Yesica Prado. ^.^]
In the novel, all characters play a very significant roll that without them the novel would not be interesting and fascinating as it is now, but the most important character besides the narrator in my opinion is, Elroy Berdahl. Therefore I would have to agree with Ashley Hart and Cesar Servin that without Elroy Berdahl it would change the whole course of the story. In the chapter “The Rainy River”, the narrator depicts Elroy as the man who saved his life, he said, “The man who opened the door that day is the hero of my life. How do I say this without sounding sappy? Blurt it out—the man saved me. He offered exactly what I needed, without questions, without any words at all”(48). He had a great impact on the author because after twenty years later he still remembers him as his hero. Elroy gave him the courage and the support he needed in the most critical stage of his existence, where he had to make a decision that would entirely change his life. In that same chapter, during his stay at the Tip Top Lodge, the narrator expresses all the emotions that he was going through, he states, “One thing for certain, he knew I was in desperate trouble. And he knew I couldn’t talk about it. The wrong word—or even the right word—and I would’ve disappeared. I was wired and jittery”(50). If Elroy would not have helped the narrator, he would of made the incorrect decisions with the inadequate attitude. He would of escaped to Canada and had felt a traitor for the rest of his days. Later on in that same chapter, Elroy put the narrator to the test, “I’ll never be certain, of course, but I think he meant to bring me up against the realities, to guide me across the river and to take me to the edge and to stand a kind of vigil as I chose a life for myself. I remember staring at the old man, then at my hands, then at Canada” (56). Thanks to Elroy’s presence, the narrator was able to make a decision and was capable to go to the war with confidence, instead of concern and hesitation. As a result of this lesson, the author was able to survive the Vietnam War. Besides, if Elroy would not had appeared in the novel, the author would have not gotten that experience. Also, we might not have the knowledge on how a soldier feels before the war, the distress that they have to go through to make the right decision.
Hi, Angelica Alcaraz
Well, in my opinion, I have to say that someone who I think is very important in the novel is the man that the narrator "killed". When the narrator remembers and constantly mentions the man he "killed" he remembers him with so much detail. He mentions every single detail he knew about this man. When he remembers this man his memory is so strong and always reocurring; details sucha as, "His jaw was in his throat, his upper lip and teeth were gone, his one eye was shut, his other eye...even when he was asleep"(124-125). This memory is constantly mentioned and alwyays mentioned with so much detail and so clear in his head. This represents the guilt that is caused because of what war creates. War creates this guilt. This guilt is caused by war because innocent men are always the ones who have to die because the man the narrator killed was an innocent man as mentioned,"He had no stomach for violence. He loved mathematics"(127). This man who the narrator "killed" is a symbol of how destructive war is. It creates nothing but guilt and deaths of many innocent men. It is later mentioned in page 179 ,"I did not kill him. But I was present, you see, and my presence was guilt enough". Even with the narrator not killing him but just by being there creates this guilt. This proves how destructive war is in the world. Many other deaths are mentioned as memories by the narrator and he feels guilty that is why he is constantly remembering them because they were people that he was working with and was always usually with, but this man that the narrator "killed" was a complete stranger and with the narrator just being there was good enough for him to feel guilty. This is why I beleive this man is very important to have been mentioned because it represents how destructive war is. This man is important because he is like another perspective of the feeling of guilt and of how destructive war is.
I agree wit wat sana says of why Norman Bowker is also very important. I believe she also proves my point of how war is destructive. If you don't die in the war, life after it is still very destructive. Like she mentioned that Norman's life after the war is filled with solitude and isolation. No matter how or in which way war is nothing pleasant and nothing people should be happy about.
When I first read the question for this blog I thought of Norman Bowker. Then I saw everyone else's entries and saw that their opinions are like mine :) All the characters in this story contribute to the actual story as a whole, but somehow in the end Norman Bowker stand out the most, so I would agree with Sana and Chung Tai when they say that Norman Bowker is effective in this story as well as others who think the same. This character didn't seem to want to be in a war like Tim didn't. The worst experience he had was losing his good friend Kiowa: "Circling the lake, Norman Bowker remembered how his friend Kiowa had disappeared under the waste and water" (pg 150) Like Sana said, it was harder for Norman to deal with things after the war because he was alone on his own, without his family's or friends' support: "..his father was at home watching sports on television" (pg 139), "and most of Norman Bowker's friends were living in Des Moines or Sioux City, or going to school somewhere, or holding down jobs (pg139) Everyone was preoccupied with day to day things so he was left to spend his days circling the lake thinking about what had happened in Vietnam. What Bowker can't seem to stop thinking about and recalling is Kiowa's death. He seems to be blaming himself for his friend's death. Norman feels that because he showed Kiowa a picture of his girlfriend..that that somehow later leaded to Kiowa's death: "the young soldier was still searching for his girlfriend's picture. Still remebering how he had killed Kiowa" ..."The boy wanted to confess. He wanted to tell lieutenant how in the middle of the night he had pulled out Billie's picture and passed it over to kiowa and then Switched on the flashlight" ...(pg 176) "The flashlight has done it. Like a target shining in the dark." (pg 177) Norman also keeps repeating how he tried to save Kiowa but couldn't: "He would've talked about this, and how he grabbed Kiowa by the boot and tried to pull him out. He pulled hard but Kiowa was gone, and then suddenly he felt himself going, too.... He released Kiowa's boot and watched it slide away." (pg 149) After the war, Norman couldn't live with what had happened. He couldn't really study or find a steady job: "..Bowker described the problem of finding a meaningful use for his life after the war. He had worked briefly as an automotive parts salesman, a janitor, a car wash attendant, and a short order cook at the local A&W fast food franchise....At one point he had enrolled in the junior college in his hometown, but course work, he said, seemed too abstract, too distant, with nothing real or tangible at stake, certainly not the stakes of a war." (pg 155) Finally, (probably because of the burden he was carrying) Norman Bowker hanged himself: "He had been playing pick-up basketball at the Y; after two hours he went off for a drink of water; he used a jumprope; his friends found him hanging from a water pipe. There was no suicide note, no message of any kind." (pg 160)
"Norman was a quiet boy," his mother wrote, "and I don't suppose he wanted to bother anybody." (pg 160). It seems like Norman Bowker wanted to leave this world in order to "not bother anyone" which isn't right. If only he had someone's support, if only he had someone to talk to to get rid of whatever it that stayed deep in his heart, if only he had someone help him get a good job..It's the same as asking "what if?" We don't know what if? Maybe if things were different, Norman would've been able to get over what happened in the Vietnam mud fields and Norman Bowker would've been still alive today? The answers of this and other questions we will never know...
by the way...the above posted blog is by justyna ciezobka ;):)
Jennifer said:
In reference to the question which character is needed the most,I'm very indecisive on which character to choose. All the characters need the help from one another to complete this war memory.My first example would be from the first chapter "The Things They Carried" {pg.1)He describes each character in depth. Such as what their personalities are like,down to what each person carried in their private life. Secondly in the seventh chapter (pg.67) "How to Tell a True War Story" the author tells a lot of different events on how each person felt a war story should be told.Each character had their own say so such as tone,mood,setting,and moral. This whole chapter was a mixture of ideas not just from one person. Collaboration was the key and collaboration only works if there's more than one idea. Lastly from what I've been reading its obvious that these memories couldn't be precious if there wasn't more than one person to experience them with.
Hi, this is Diana Arechar
I would have to agree with Angelica and say that the man that O’Brien killed was a character that the novel needs the most. Although there are many other important characters, I see the young man as being more important because of how he impacted the narrator so much. It was easy to see how he was impacted because he kept repeating how the man looked as he lay dead, (pgs.124-130), and he even made up a story of the man’s life. We never knew his name nor why he was fighting but we do know that O’Brien killed him and felt terribly guilty.
The way he made the man’s life almost made me thing that he wanted to feel more guilty, “He was not a fighter. His health was poor...he wanted someday to be a teacher of mathematics,” (125). O’Brien could not get over the fact that he had taken the life of a man that he did not know and that had never hurt him but that would have surely done so if given the opportunity. O’Brien makes up this man’s life to help us understand what war bring. I agree again with Angelica on that war brings guilt but it also brings death to people who could have been some one great. It destroys the innocence of young men when they have to kill and it implants its horrors in the minds of all involved.
I also feel that O’Brien made us feel that this character was important because the young man seemed so much like him. O’Brien described himself as, “graduating from Macalester College, I was drafted into a war I hated. I was twenty-one years old. Young, yes, and politically naive,” (40). O’Brien was young, smart, with high hopes for his future and it was put to a stand still when he was sent to Vietnam. I think O’Brien saw himself as that young man, in a way, and was scared of dying like him. While we see the other character also being very close to him, this man he killed still haunted him.
Hey, this is Nancy M.
I agree with Kathy when she says that Linda is an important character because she explains why the narrator repeats so many memories. He does it because by repeating them and writing stories about his war memories he can bring back Kiowa, Ted Lavender, Linda, etc. He does it because that way they are not dead since like Linda said being dead is like being a book that's not read. If in his stories they are mentioned than they really aren't dead but rather alive.
I think that Kiowa is really needed in this story because you always need the jerk who make the very stupid comments "how he died, just dropped and down", making a joke about it. He's the one that should have died, but for some dumb reason, he is still alive. He is so ignorant that it makes you want to go against what is right and just pull the trigger. Those kinds of people makes you do crazy things to make him just shuthim up. He represents how even in tough silent times, he opens his mouth: speaking his mouth through his rear."The guy's dead, he kept saying, which seemed profound- the guy's dead. I mean really". He is making a celebration of his death, instead of giving at least respect for the deceased one. Also how you can't get away from those kinds of people. He's the one that is unprdedictable, just thinking he can't be a bigger idiot, and "wahm" just surprised you. He makes it seem like all of that is just a game, he probably thinks that he really didn't die, that's why he's so arrogant. Then again, he is that brings life into the most miserable times. Without him in this novel, there would be no upright in this, "he is the one that you can't live with, but can't live witout him".
Hi, this is Robert Slay.
I agree that throughout the story just like many of the students here believe that Norman Bowker is an important character in the story but i don't think he is the most important. I would in this instance have to agree with Ashley Hart. I think that Elroy, the man from the Tip Top Lodge, this the most important because without the presence and introduction of Elroy, the narrator would have went to Canada and he would have been a sucker and a trader just like he dreamed of if he had went to Canada (pg. 59) I believe what the book didn't present out right or it is rather a inference on my behalf is that "Elroy" was most likely in a similar situation as the narrator was in because, at times in the "River" chapter he seemed to understand what the narrator was going through. Throughout the chapter entitled about the trip to the river, this explained in many ways why Elroy acted so standoffish towards the Narrator. I infer that Elroy still is living a life of secrecy, I believe he ran away from a similar situation that the narrator was in, being that the narrator often second guessed many of decisions through pages 60-70. Each time Elroy, did something different as to hum or act indifferent, the narrator took noticed. Elroy acted as a learning tool, but almost as a guide. Elroy gave him little signals that helped him to make his choice, he did this all use body language and gestures without a single word. Another reason why the narrator didn't flee to Canada because of the story's theme of "Embarrassment" pag 56-59 is a entire dream of the narrator facing embarrassment from his family, hometown, and entire country, he felt as though he would be some sort of loser. I disagree with everyone except those who chose Elroy due to the fact that if Tim Obrien had never ran into Elroy he would have never went to the war, and one of the underlying storyline is learning how to correctly write a war story, and if he had went to the war because he hadn't ran into Elroy then there would be no war story resulting in no existence of this book.
Hi, this is yvette ramirez, and as I've noticed, alot of people seem to believe that Norman Bowker is the second most important character in this book. Well, frankly I believe that all the characters are equally important because of how the book was written, but since we have to chose I would say that Bob "Rat" Kiley is the next important character, like alicia garcia and joanna said. Tim wanted to write this book in a certain format to tell a story with many sub stories that sometimes seemed unreal or extremely exaggerated or the events seemed true enough but the reactions did not. He explains these reactions and stories are told in this manner because "story truth is truer sometimes than happening truth (179)" to him. Rat Kiley was also a story teller in the book and yes, he may have exaggerated a bit but that was his own way of storytelling. I think that he serves to emphasize the different points of view that you can have for a story. Apart from that, he also serves to emphasize the need for sharing memories and stories, which is what O'Brien feels the need to do when he is older and all these events have occurred. O'Brien states that "what stories can do, I guess, is make things present (180)" showing how much he feels the need to deal with these things after they have happened many years later. He also says that "I can look at things I never looked at.I can attach faces to grief and love and God. I can be brave.I can make myself feel again (180)". This reminds me of Rat Kiley because of how he loved to exaggerate his stories, trying to make himself appear as more than he was, or making hyperboles of not so unordinary events, all ways to make him FEEL... just feel in general and try to make sense of everything around him.
Hi this is Stephanie Hernandez,
I think that the character besides the narrator that had the most impact on helping us understand the overall effect and ideas in the novel is "the man he killed" (pg.124). I think that this character had the most impact on helping us understand the overall effect and ideas in the novel because we see what happened to a young man who had future plans and who didn't want to die at the war. I think this had a tremendous impact because we see how the life of a person with so many aspirations was ruined because he died going to war. We also see the way that he was killed, and we get a specific description of the way he looked after he was killed (pg. 124) "His jaw was in his throat, his upper lip and teeth were gone, his one eye was shut, his other eye was a star-shaped hole..". This also creates such an impact on the reader because we are told what the young man wanted to be in the future "His life was now a constellation of posibilities. So, yes, maybe a scholar. And for years, despite his family's poverty, the man I killed would have been determined to continue his education in mathematics" (pg.128). We don't only see the effect that war had on the man that was killed, but we see the effect that killing a man had on O'Brien, by the way that he was reacting towards the dead body. We see the way that a person can be damaged by doing and witnessing such a scene, when it wasn't something they didn't want to do but something they had the obligation to do because they were soldiers.
I also agree with chung tai because I also believe that Norman Bowker was effective in helping us understand the effect that war has on a person, not just possibly death but if a soldier survives, they will be scarred for life for witnessing and doing the things they did and had to go through at war, not only the tangibles, but emotions such as guilt, sadness, embarresment, and anger.
Hi I’m Miriam O.,
Before I begin to agree with any other comments I would like to add that Kiowa is one of the main characters in the story. Though it had a smaller role besides Bob “Rat” Kiley and Norman Bowker, who were mentioned a lot, Kiowa’s presence in the storyline was meaningful. From the beginning of the story he was distinguished as “a devout Baptist, carried an illustrated New Testament that had been presented to him by his father.” (pg. 3) He seemed more caring and yet willing to fight. There was just something unique about him. Even during and after Kiowa’s death the soldiers had a really tough time with his search and recognizing he was dead. As Tim is writing what he feels and remembers about the war he acknowledges his death after so long, “I sit at this typewriter and stare through my words and watch Kiowa sinking into the deep muck of shit field.” (pg. 32)He thinks and thinks and now it’s all stuck in his conscience because he also mentions this, “Kiowa yells at me. Curt Lemon steps from the shade into bright sunlight, his face brown and shining, and then he soars into a tree. The bad stuff never stops happening: it lives in its own dimension, replaying itself over and over.” (pg. 32) To him it’s something that will never leave him as much as he tried, it’s all part of his life and those men became almost like his family making him the man that he is now. He then speaks about his novel and his addition of Kiowa’s death in it, “I had been forced to omit the shit field and the rain and the death of Kiowa, replacing this material with events that better fit the book’s narrative. As a consequence I’d lost the natural counterpoint between the lake and the field. A metaphoric unity was broken. What the piece needed, and did not have, was the terrible killing power of that shit field.” (pg. 159) Here in this statement for some reason he doesn’t state Kiowa in the novel, but to him, this piece of information was valuable than any other thing especially because he mentions “the terrible killing power of that shit field.” Yes, it was just a shit field but the contents had killed a really valuable person. The book even has a whole chapter dedicated to him “In the field” (pgs. 162-178). In this chapter Jimmy Cross just kept blaming himself for the death of Kiowa and the rest of the soldiers did too. “In the field, though, the causes were immediate. A moment of carelessness or bad judgment or plain stupidity carried or consequences that lasted forever.” (pg. 177) At the moment of the incident of looking for Kiowa everyone out of pressure and remembering how good of a kid he was they were all worried and frustrated about his disappearance and death. Jimmy Cross didn’t even want to think about the situation and drift somewhere else. In “The Ghost Soldiers” chapter “You try to block it out but you can’t. You see ghosts. You blink and shake your head. Bullshit, you tell yourself. But then you remember the guys who died: Curt Lemon, Kiowa, Ted Lavender, a half-dozen others whose faces you can’t bring into focus anymore.” (pg.205) Now that he thinks about it which is after the war to him every moment he went through flashes right before his eyes and pictures the deaths of all the people that have passed. Then he begins to describe how he feels about the whole situation and the actions of how he feels. It has to do with all flashbacks with this novel he keeps remembering and remembering like the next chapter “The Lives of the Dead” he recalls he is a writer and “I keep dreaming Linda alive. And Ted Lavender, too, and Kiowa.” (pg.225) Here it’s now in his dreams and conscience. To him it’s now like a torment in his life. Kiowa although has small roles still has something meaningful and is mentioned. With all these memories I can agree with Charlene P. with Kiowa being one of the important characters in the novel. He is something that is in the conscience of Jimmy Cross and Tim O’Brien. Also by the way he is described as a well character and straight forward. Just like the small conversation he had with Kiowa and one of the interactions that he had with him that he clearly remembers and makes him remember about Linda too. (pg.227-228)
In my opinion all the characters are important to the novel but the character that is absolutely necessary to help us understand the overall effects and ideas in this novel is Bob Kiley. Bob Kiley is necessary because the author can relate to him the most. Tim has lost someone in life that meant something powerful to him and so has Bob Kiley, he lost his best friend. Bob Kiley is set apart from all the others because you see his suffering when his friend is killed and you can see how Tim suffers when Linda dies. Without Bob Kiley you can’t see how powerful friendship and love can be affected by war, even if Tim explains his suffering for Linda you can truly see how a war can end a friendship. “Curt Lemon was dead. Rat Kiley had lost his best friend in the world.”(79)
Bob Kiley was affected by war to a level that Tim was affected by it as well. “With Rat though, it was different. Too many body bags, maybe. Too much gore.” (220) When Tim killed a man he was mortified, Kiowa made him feel as though he had no other choice and still the death made a big impact on him. To Bob Kiley death was everywhere too much of it made him insane, he couldn’t handle it, he could see him self dying, rotting. “It was a sad thing to watch. Definitely not the old Rat Kiley, His whole personality seemed out of kilter.” (221) War did this to him, when you read about Bob Kiley you see how in desperation to get out, you do crazy things, which is what in the minds of the soldiers war created.
I agree with Desiree, that Rat Kiley played and important role in Tim’s life, with out Kiley Tim would have probably died out in combat but Kiley was a great friend willing to risk himself for his friends. Kiley meant something to Tim and that makes him an important character.
- Macrina
Hi, this is Anali Negrete
I agree with everyone that says that Norman Bowker is the character the novel needs the most besides the narrator.
I think he’s the character that has the most impact on helping the reader understand the overall effects and ideas in this novel. I agree with Ted that the war had a drastic impact on Bowker’s life. After the war he really did not know what to do with his life. He had no one close to him to talk to, and he did not want to talk to anyone in town, “The town seemed remote somehow” (pg.139, line 20). All he could really think about was Kiowa’s death. I think that’s one of the reasons that O’Brien mentions Bowker going around the lake in circles. “Norman Bowker followed the tar road on its seven-mile loop around the lake, then he started all over again, driving slowly” (pg. 137, lines 2-4). We know that Bowker goes around the lake several times and goes over the same memories over and over again. I think that this is put here to show us how for some veterans, the war memories, the things that they can’t forgive themselves from doing, the things that they wish they could’ve done differently, etc., stay in their head and don’t go away. Thus, these thoughts go around in circles in their heads; these thoughts can make them lose their minds, as is the case with Bowker. After a certain amount of time he could no longer take it and as a result he killed himself. Furthermore, in a card that Bowker writes to O’Brien, Bowker says, “The thing is there is no place to go…That night when Kiowa got wasted, I sort of sank down in to the sewage with him…Feels like I’m still in deep shit” (pg. 156, lines3-8). This tells us that Bowker cannot forgive himself for what happened to Kiowa. He feels guilty and is not ready to go on with his life. Bowker’s life after the war shows us the kind of life that some veterans have. This character shows us that after a war, some veterans will never be able to forget what they lived through the war; the war sort of scars them for life. They can’t forget about it no matter how much they want to. It’s part of who they are now.
I also agree with Ted that Bowker is the most important character in this novel because he’s another character that is left with the scars from the war. O’Brien is also scarred from the war, but unlike Bowker, he’s able to deal with his war memories differently; he deals with them in a more effective way than Bowker did because he did not kill himself. I think that’s why Bowker is the second most important character in the novel. O’Brien sets himself in comparison with Bowker because he gives us the stories of both of their lives after the war. These are the only two stories that we get. O’Brien does this to show the reader how two veterans live their lives after the war and how differently they deal with the weight of their war memories.
(Kerri Carnahan)
I must agree, because I honestly have observed the novel thoroughly and found this to be true, that Norman Bowker is the most influential character to the narrator's incentive to writing the novel. I say this because the narrator had written this fact down himself, "What you should do, Tim, is write a story about a guy who feels like he got zapped over in that shit hole. A guy who can’t get his act together and just drives around town all day and can’t think of any damn place to go and doesn’t know how to get there anyway. This guy wants to talk about it, but he can’t." (pg. 157) Tim O' Brien received this letter from pal-soldier Norman Baker in the spring of 1957. “The letter covered seventeen handwritten pages, its tone jumping from self-pity to anger to irony to guilt to a kind of feigned indifference. He didn’t know what to feel.” (Pg. 156)
Years later, he recieved a letter from Norman's mother, explaining how Norman Baker had hung himself at a YMCA in his home town after reading the story, which he believed was a failure.
After the was was over, soldiers would return "home" to a "home" they felt completely unfamiliar with. Most things had changed over the war's course of time. Many of their friends had left to college, different cities, states, even countries, or were busy holding down jobs. Their families had changed. Life just wasn't the same. Many soldiers had no clue as to how to carry on with their lives, and even more sadly, how to cope with the horrors of painful and frightening memories of the wrong war. That was the case of Norman Bowker.
The protagonist “O’Brien” compares himself to Norman Bowker, commenting that he, too, rarely spoke of the war, but that he “had been talking about it virtually non-stop through [his] writing.”
It becomes very evident that O'Brien is very similar to Bowker in the novel by him stating, "If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel that some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie." (pg. 68)His writing was a way to address the random events that had occurred to him. This was an ability Norman Bowker badly needed, but did have have the strength to do.
Norman bowker fully accentuates the novel, being very much alike the narrator's feelings post-war, yet he wasn't as emotionally or mentally stable to overcome the war's ruins. He was the reason why O'Brien wrote the novel, his main inspiration.
In agreeance with the above stated, I agree with Sana, Laura Hernandez, Chung Tai, Blanca, and more.
I also agree with Alexandria Prude and Ernesto Gomez that Mary Anne Belle is also a very important character in this novel. I agree with them because her story gives us a different view of how the war could affect a person.
Hey this is Joselyn Reyes.
I agree with Yvette on the part where they said that all the characters in the book are equal because they all are since they impact the stories that are being told by O'Brien and disagree with Kerri on Norman Bowker being the main character.
As for my choice of the main character in the novel "The Things They Carried" would be Mitchell Sanders. He always tries to dig deeper, find the meaning in the stories that Bob "Rat" Kiley tells, for him there are morals. Sanders always tries to lighten the mood by the littlest things he does too.
When I say that Sanders always tries to find the "morals" in the stories being told I mean to say that he's always trying to see if there is any lesson to actually get out of the stories to apply to life in general. "Late in the night Mitchell Sanderstouched my shoulder. "Just came to me," he whispered. "In a true was story, if thre's a moral at all, it's like the thread that makes the cloth. You can't tease it out. You can't extract the meaning without unraveling the deeper meaning. And in the end, reall, there's nothing much to say about a true war story, except maybe "Oh" (76)" All this was said after Sanders told a story about soldiers laying out hearing a "village" and "music" and in the end having a whole shoot out just so the soldiers to realize in the end that it was all in their head but they still continued hearing the "village" and "music" after.
Mitchell Sanders would always try to lighten the mood even with the little things he did. "I remember Mitchell Sanders sitting quietly in the shade of an old banyon tree. He was using a thumbnail to pry off the body lice, working slowly, carefully depositing the lice in the blue USO envelope. His eyes were tired. It had been a long two weeks in the bush. After an hour or so he sealed up the envelope, wrote FREE in the upper right-hand corner, and addressed it to his draft board in Ohio. (31)" Even the little things he did that were random would make him stand out and be different from all the other soldiers out there. Another on of his habits was Sanders playing with his yo-yo. "At one point, I remember, Mitchell Sanders turned and looked at me, not quite nodding, as if to warn me about something, as if he already knew, then after a while he rolled up his yo-yo and moved away. (70)" Sanders always carried his yo-yo with him, he used it to pass time and entertain himself.
I feel that Mitchell Sanders has a really big effect on the novel overall. Even if he can be mean towards the other soldiers or acts like he knows more than other he just seems to want to pass down his interpretations to whoever cares to listen. Even if people believe him or not he always wants to get the "moral," the final lesson across and established in peoples thoughts so that they would think twice at times in what they're doing. He could look at things both in a positive or negative way throughout the book.
I AGREE WITH SOME PEOPLE IN HERE BUT THE ONE I MAINLY AGREE WITH ARE SANA, BLANCA, AND YESENIA. I BELIEVE THAT THE NOVEL WOULD BE NOTHING THE SAME IF THE CHARACTER NORMAN BOWKER WASN'T INCLUDED. IF THE LIFE OF NORMAN BOWKER WASNT EXPLAINED AND SHOWN TO US BY HIMSELF WE WOULDNT HAVE REACTED THE WAY WE DID OR FELT THE WAY THAT TIM O'BRIEN WANTED US TO FEEL WITH THE IDEA OF WAR AND ITS EFFECTS. LIKE YESENIA SAID IT SEEMS AS IF NORMAN WAS THE ONE TO SHOW US HOW TO FEEL AND THE MOST IMPORTANT FOR THE FACT THAT HE TALKED TO THE NARRATOR “ I received a long, disjointed letter in which Bowker described the problem of finding a meaningful use for his life after the war.”(p.155) AND HE GAVE TIM O'BRIEN THE IDEA OF WRITING THIS BOOK BECAUSE OF HIS EXPERIENCE IN THE WAR “What you should do, Tim, is write a story about a guy who feels like he got zapped over in that shit hole. A guy who can’t get his act together and just drives around town all day and can’t think of any damn place to go and doesn’t know how to get there anyway This guy wants to talk about it, but he can’t…”(Pg. 157.BECAUSE HE WANTED THE REAL LIFE STORY OF THE EFFECTS THAT WAR HAVE ON SOLDIERS TO BE TOLD. THEY DONT JUST CARRY WEAPONS, BUT AS YESENIA MENTIONED THEY CARRY THE GRIEF AND THE THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE THE CAUSE OF SOMEONE'S ELSE DEATH. IF NORMAN WASN'T IN THE NOVEL TO SHOW US HOW HE FELT AND WHAT THE WAR LED HIS LIFE TO THE ENDING THAT IT HAD FOR THE FACT OF ALL THE MEMORIES THAT SEEMED TO TORMENT HIM MORE AND MORE EACH DAY, THE BOOK WOULDNT HAVE THE SAME SIGNIFICANCE. BECAUSE NORMAN BOWKER SHOWS HOW EVEN CERTAIN VETERANS FEEL DEAD INSIDE OR WELL MENTALLY AND EMOTIONALLY ALTHOUGH PHYSICALLY THEY ARE STILL ALIVE, AND HOW THOSE MEMORIES CAN THEN LEAD TO THEM COMMITTING SUICIDE, " “ He’d been playing basketball at the Y; after two hours, he went off for a drink of water; he used a jump rope; his friends found him hanging from a water pipe.”(p.160)
In my opinion, aside from the narrator, the character that the novel "needs" the most would have to be Mary Anne Bell, Mark Fossie's girlfriend. I personally feel that she had the most impact on helping us understand the overall effects and ideas in this novel. What Tim O' Brien wants us to see is what big of an impact the war had on him as well as his fellow comrades. In the chapter Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong the idea of bringing in a girl is brought up. All the soldiers ponder the idea but then come to their senses and realize it's impossible. Some how Mark Fossie managed to have his girlfriend show up six weeks later. With in the time she was there, she changed dramatically. She arrived with "a bubbly personality and a happy smile (pg.95)" and along with Mark Fossie planned that "some day they would be married, and live in a gingerbread house near Lake Erie, and have three healthy yellow-haired children, and grow old together... (pg.94)" In her second week she was learning how to disassemble an M-16 and "there was a new confidence in her voice, a new authority in the way she carried herself (pg.98)." When Mark Fossie and her spoke about getting married, there was an imprecision in the way she expressed her thoughts. Mark Fossie noticed changes in her since she'd arrived. "The bubbliness was gone. The nervous giggling, too. When she laughed now, which was rare, it was only when something struck her as truly funny (pg.99)"
Mary Anne had a complete change of character. Slowly she started drifting apart form Mark Fossie and the rest of the guys. She came in late twice "very late. And then finally she did not come in at all (pg.99)" Mary Anne was gone and with "the greenies" now. The last time Mark Fossie saw her, at her throat "was a necklace of human tongues (pg.110)"
The reason why I felt Mary Anne had the most impact on helping us understand the overall effects and ideas in this novel was because with in the little time she was in Vietnam, and not even in the battle field, she changed her attitude and persona dramatically. I completely agree with Alexandria Prude and feel that Mary Anne's transformation allows us to see how much a war can impact anyone. How even someone who wasn't involved in the war or witnessed any war violence at all could have a life changing experience. O' Brien wants us to see this he constantly says that he wants us to "feel what he felt" as if we were present at the time of the events.
-Rocio Robles
This is Kyle Trentz
The person who is most important to the story aside from the narrator Tim O’Brien would have to be Kiowa. Firstly I would say that Kiowa was an important character because he was very religious. His religious, Christian way of life directly conflicts with the lack of morals that Tim speaks of throughout the story. In the story “Spin”, O’Brien describes a game of checkers between Henry Dobbins and Norman Bowker. He says that the war is not like a game of checkers because, “ you knew where you stood. You knew the score…There was a winner and a loser. There were rules” (32). This resembles the idea of good and evil that Kiowa believes in. He even gives O’Brien support and guidance through the morals and sense of right and wrong that he has because of his Baptist upbringing.
The second reason that Kiowa is an important character in the story is the effect of his death. Kiowa dies in what’s called the ‘shit field’. Norman Bowker, for example, feels guilt over not being able to save Kiowa. He drowns there on a rainy night, and Bowker was there walking with him. He couldn’t dig him out, he couldn’t save him. The fact that he couldn’t save him haunted him, and eventually drove him to kill himself. “It’s not terrible,’ he told me, ‘but you left out Vietnam. Where’s Kiowa? Where’s the shit field?’ Eight months later he hanged himself’ (160). Bowker wrote this in a letter to Tim O’Brien. He said his story wasn’t bad, but he left out Kiowa. Kiowa was so important to Bowker, his death effected him so badly after the war that he couldn’t even imagine why O’Brien would leave Kiowa out of his story. The guilt over his death eventually drove him to suicide. Jimmy Cross also was effected because he made the decision to have the company march across the shit field that rainy night, and he felt responsible for his death – although crossing the field was necessary.
I also agree with Sana that the book would not be so effective without Norman Bowker, but I believe that Kiowa is most important. I believe that Bowker is important to the novel because he brings a point of view to the novel that shows us readers how the war can effect someone.
I agree with anyone who said that Kiowa was the second most important character. Throughout the book there was a death and destruction going on. However, the most horrific death was that of Kiowa. Kiowa’s death was one of the memories that kept on repeating. I believe why the author chose the memory of Kiowa’s death to repeat is because of how he died in such a terrible way and Kiowa’s death strikes guilt into the soldiers as well as the readers. Kiowa is also a very unique character in the book. Unlike the other soldiers, Kiowa actually consoles his fellow soldiers and try to reveal to them that terrible things happen in war that couldn’t be explained. It is kind of ironic, in a way, since he died and he was the one who always who would give a reason for why unfortunate events occur and he drown in a “deep muck of a shit field”. Ultimately, the reason why Kiowa is a very important person is because his death was so symbolic in how it reveals to us the unfairness war really is. War doesn’t care if it is a good person or bad person, one life could be taken just like that.
In the novel 'The Things They Carried' written by Tim O'Brien, I believe that the most important secondary character in the novel is Bob [Rat] Kiley. I believe Rat is most important secondary character because he is the only character that we as the reader are allowed to fully observe how war changes a person, in which the person in this situation is Rat himself. In the beginning of the war Rat Kiley was seen as an innocent person [being referred to as a 'kid'. "Right away, Lemon and Rat Kiley started goofing. They didn't understand about the spookiness. They were just kids, they didn't know. A nature hike they thought, not even a war..." (pg. 69). However Rat changes after the death of Lemon and reacts violently by assaulting the baby water buffalo, "he shot it in the flanks. It wasn't to kill; it was to hurt. The platoon stood there watching, feeling all kids of things, but there wasn't a great deal of pity for the baby water buffalo. Curt Lemon was dead. Rat Kiley lost his best friend in the world. Later in the week he would write a long personal letter to the guy's sister, who would not write back, but for now it was a question of pain... Rat Kiley was crying. He tried to say something, but then cradled his rifle and went off by himself... we had witnessed something essential, something brand new and something profound, a piece of the world so startling there was not yet a name for it" (pg.79). In the chapter the 'Night Life' again emphasizes on the effects of war on soldiers, where Rat is ultimately driven insane because of the war. "With Rat Kiley, thought it was different. Too many body bags, maybe. Too much gore. At first Rat just sank inside himself, not saying a word, but then later on, after five or six days, it flipped the other way. He couldn't stop talking. Weird talk, too. Talking about bugs, for instance: how the worst thing in Nam was the goddamn bugs. Big giant killer bugs, he' say, mutant bugs, bugs with f**ked-up DNA, bugs that were chemically altered by napalm and defoliants and tear gas and DDT. He claimed the bugs were personally after his ass. He said he could hear the bastards homing in on him. Swarms of mutant bugs, billions of them, they had him bracketed. Whispering his name, he said--his actual name--all night long--it was driving him crazy" (pg. 221). "Rat Kiley finally hit a wall. He couldn't sleep during the hot daylight hours; he couldn't cope with the nights...he broke down infront of Mitchell Sanders. Not crying, but up against it. He said he was scared. And it wasn't normal scared...Rat scratched the skin at his elbow, digging in hard. His eyes were red and weary. "It's not right," he said. "These pictures in my head, they won't quit. I'll see a guy's liver. The actual Fucking liver. And the thing is, it doesn't scare me, it doesn't even give me the willies. More like curiosity. The way a doctor feels when he looks at a patient, sort of mechanical, not seeing the real person, just a ruptured appendix or a clogged-up artery...they days aren't so bad, but at night the pictures get to be a bitch. I start seeing my own body. Chunks of myself. My own heart, my own kidneys. It's like--I don't know--it's like staring into a this huge black crystal ball. One of these nights I'll be lying dead out there in the dark and nobody'll find me except the bugs-- I can see it--I can see the goddamn bugs chewing tunnels through me--I can see the mongooses munching on my bones. I swear, it's too much. I can't keep seeing myself dead." (pg. 222-223). Because of this 3rd/1st person point of view offered by Tim O'Brien, we get to understand fully the effects of war on soldiers by observing the change of Rat Kiley throughout the book.
In response to people that believe Norman Bowker as the most important secondary character; I believe that you guys are right that he is an important character and shows how soldiers deal with it post-war but I believe that Kiley would be the better choice because we can fully observe the change that he goes through and what exactly changes him throughout the novel.
Hi, I am Cristina Perez =D
In my opinion Kiowa was th echaracter who had such a great effect on the novel that he cannot be missing from the whole story. The narrator focuses a lot on this guy because he says he killed him. I think the narrator bases his novel around this chracter because there's a change in the narrator before he killed Kiowa and after. On page 59 where it says "There was a slim young man I would one day kill with a hand grenade along a red clay trail outside the village of My Khe" it's the beginning of the novel and the narrator is already mentioning Kiowa and how this guy has changed him, because he wants to commit suicide but he is not able to. Kiowa and the memory of the narrator killing him changes the way he looks at life and his entire world. I think Kiowa changed the narrator's life and that's why he can't be missing from the novel. Kiowa's character is so important that the novel has a whole chapter dedicated to how he became this unforgetable memory in the narrator's mind titled "The Man I Killed" on page 124. In that chapter the narrator explains how it became that he killed Kiowa with the grenade and how he would never forget that moment. Killing Kiowa was like the worst nightmare the narrator keeps on having throughout his life. That's why Kiowa is such an important character to this novel. On page 171 "He'd lost everything. He'd lost Kiowa and his weapon and his flashlight and his girlfriend's picture. He remembered this. He remembered wondering if he could lose himself." These lines form the book come to show that Kiowa had changed the narrator's life and in a way he had lost what he once was. On page 179 after the war and time has passed he comes back to the place where he lived all these memories. "I watched a man die on a trail near the village of My Khe. I did not kill him. But I was present, you see, my presence was guilt enough. I remember his face. . ." and the narrator goes on about how he feels guilty of Kiowa'd death. The narrator besides bringing back this memory he keeps on blaming himself for what occurred to Kiowa that day. That's why I think Kiowa is such an important character to the narrator and to the novle because he shaped the novel and changed the narrator's personality.
I agree with Charlene Poindexter because kiowa was the only one who everyone in the squad remembered very dear in their hearts. After the war most soldiers went back home but kiowa would be in their mind and hearts forever. The letter that Jimmy Cross sent out to his father was hard to write for him and that shows what a great impact Kiowa had on their lives.
Spencer Harstead:
This book really seems to revolve around the characters and their individual stories as well as the way they all connect. I have to agree with Kyle A when he says that all characters are important. However, if I had to choose the most needed character, I would have to pick Kiowa. I do not agree with the majority that say Norman BOwker.
First of all, he was so close to O’brien; probably the character closest to him in the entire book. He was the one who put things into perspective for O’brien when O’brien killed the guy. On page 129, Kiowa tells O’brien “I’ll tell you the straight truth...The guy was dead the second he stepped on the trail. Understand me?” As Nancy C mentioned, Kiowa showed great strength and courage when others were hopeless and scared.
No one’s death impacted the characters in the story as much as that of his closest friend Kiowa. It made Jimmy Cross feel very guilty. “Lieutenant Jimmy Cross felt something tighten inside him. In the letter to Kiowa’s father he would apologize point-blank. Just admit to the blunders.” (169) He had lots of trouble with this letter because he felt so bad about it. It also affected O’brien the most as he brought it up so much. “I sit at this typewriter and stare through my words and watch Kiowa sinking into the deep muck of a shit field” (32)
His life and death were very important to the book. His death, however, was the most important. It really showed a lot about the author’s point of view of war. It showed that no matter whom you are or how strong you are, you are not safe in war.
Hey this is Steven Gallardo,
I think that every character the narrator talks about is is important to understanding his story. In my point of view i think that the character that has an effect in this story most is the old man by the name of Elroy Berdahl in the Raining River. I agree with Ashley Hart and Cesar Servin that without this character, the story would be altered entirely. Even though he was a man of few words, his expressions and ways of talking would give the narrator a way of communication becuase it seemed as he already knew the narrators problem. "In all that time together, all those hours, he never asked the obvious questions: Why was I there? Why alone? Why so preoccupied? If Elroy was curious about any of this, he was careful never to put it into words" (49). He has a mysterious vibe that he doesn't have to know but can tell the obvious on anyone. He is apperently a very understanding person because he is mainly a listener. "I was ashamed to be at the Tip Top Lodge. I was ashamed to be doing the right thing. Some of this Elroy must've understood. Not the details, of course, but the plain facts of crisis" (52). The narrator would talk about his job, then they would talk about the payment of the narrator staying there and the work he had done for the old man. One day Elroy took him fishing in the river right by the Canadian river where the narrator had a choice to run away from his fears. "He was simply there, like the river and the late-summer sun. And yet by his presence, his mute wacthfulness, he made it real. He was the true audience. He was the witness, like God, or like the Gods, who look on in absolute silence as we live our lives, as we make our choices or fail to make them" (60). At that moment the narrator knew he could not do it and would be thankful for what Elroy had done but never said it to him. This would help him become the person he is that is to face hell like a man and continue living life instead of running away.
hi, this is Martin Arriaga
I agree with Ashley and in my opinion, I would say that Elroy Berdahl is important for the novel. O'Brien tries to escape the trouble of enlistment into the military by trying to flee to Canada and seeking refuge in a Lodge. "The man who opened the door that day is the hero of my life"(pg. 48), this really shows how the meeting with Elroy changed the life of O'Brien with these strong words that O'Brien has mentioned to the reader.
"But then it occurred to me that we passed into Canadian water"(pg. 55), this in a way showed how Elroy knew what situation O'Brien was in ans was trying to give O'Brien a push into deciding what he should do. As a result, O'Brien became confronted by reality into choosing the future he would endure after this boat trip.
"And yet in his presence, his mute watchfulness, he made it real"(pg 60), this really makes O'Brien feel the pressure of trying to run away from his war obligation. Elroy seems to represents a society that will judge O'Briens actions in trying to flee from the U.S and going to war. As a result of being watched and pushed into reality by Elroy, O'Brien ends up accepting the path to war.
This is Erik Zuniga…
As much as I disagree with general majority optimistic opinions, I’m going to have to agree with everyone else, especially Justyna’s post, about which character is portrayed as the most essential to the story. Every character within each of the stories grants and illustrates, through powerful details, to the readers an essential picture and affects of the war. Out of all of them I think that Norman Bowker was the most important character that in providing that essential image.
The character Norman Bowker was one who didn’t want to be a part of the war and experienced horrible memories such as when he witnessed the death Kiowa and fell hopeless and despaired in leaving Kiowa to sink into his muddy deathbed. Throughout most of the story he goes on complaining on how he could’ve earned a one silver star medal had he saved Kiowa from his watery end. It was especially hard for Norman to deal with the war mainly because he felt isolated and lonely without any moral support from others in his platoon. Most of the people that Norman cared for were back in his hometown back in Des Moines. He really blamed himself for the death of Kiowa when he showed him a picture of his girlfriend and felt that the anticipation of returning home had killed him. Norman tried really hard to save Kiowa from his watery grave, but barely managed to take out his boot from it, and by then it was too late because he had drowned into the muddy pile
Egder Dominguez
In my opinion, Kiowa is the most essential character to the overall ideas of this book. His death affected his fellow crew of soldiers in a dramatic fashion. I agree with Nancy that the reason his death was so significant to the soldiers was because he was a strong figure that dealt with his situation of fighting in Vietnam well and motivated others to continue on no matter how difficult things became in Vietnam. Gina also states various ideas such as his death showing the brutality of war and his death being more significant than the death of any other character.
Norman Bowker seemed to be the one that was affected negatively the most as he ended up committing suicide. A major part of his character revolved around Kiowa’s death and was what Tim mainly mentioned when talking about Norman’s post-war tragedy. Lieutenant Jimmy Cross was also saddened and felt responsible for having not chosen a different location to camp at. The young soldier who lost his girl Billie’s picture felt responsible for having turned on his flashlight although this may have been insignificant and only a coincidence, rather than being the cause for being mortared.. Kiowa’s death made the soldiers think deeply about the reason for fighting in Vietnam and were looking to blame someone, “You could blame the war. You could blame the idiots who made the war. You could blame Kiowa for going to it. You could blame the rain. You could blame the river. You could blame the field, the mud, the climate. You could blame the enemy. You could blame the mortar rounds.” (177). They suddenly chose to blame the government and its officials for having chosen to fight the Vietnam War. It is true that without Elroy Berdahl this book would not have been possible, but this was not the situation and his involvement did not include the overall theme Tim O’Brien was trying to express in this book of.
Tim O’Brien had not stop thinking about Kiowa’s death and decided on visiting the site (field) on his trip to Vietnam. He declared how much Kiowa’s death had affected his life, so much that “There were times in my life when I couldn‘t feel much, not sadness or pity or passion, and somehow I blamed this place for what I had become, and I blamed it for taking away the person I had once been.” It was hard for Tim to find any real emotions because of all the pain he felt from Kiowa’s death. Kiowa was a positive soldier who was religious and his death was a terrific example of the horrors of war as Tim states, “For twenty years this field had embodied all the waste that was Vietnam, all the vulgarity and horror .” (185) It is evident that Kiowa was the most important character to the overall theme of this book for his actions serving the US and for the impacts of his death to Tim O‘Brien.
This is Dominika Niemiec.
I agree with A LOT OF you, especially when you write of there reasons of picking your own characters. But in my own opinions I have to especially agree with kanthony. Jimmy Cross is the character the book needs most. He was the first character to be introduced to us in the book. We first saw all of the feelings, hopes, and suspicions, of the the troops through his eyes. He is the character that the war impacted the most, because when someone died he would feel it was his fault because he was their lieutenant, he made the groups decisions. For example when Jimmy Cross was thinking about the letter he had to write to Kiowa's father explaining why his son was dead. He was just the character that wore his emotions on his sleeve. His love for Martha, his pride in his men, and his guit over their deaths. Jimmy Cross was the character that stood out most to me, he was the one that seemed the most real to me.
Well, in my opinion, all the characters are important in the novel, but they are all circled around the narrator, Tim O'Brien. They help shape his attitude by the end of the war. Without all of these characters, the meaning wouldn't look the same, or it wouldn't be able to be understood as well. For example, when Kiowa died, Tim repeats over and over, and he always refers back to it. He makes it clear that he cannot forget. He also remembers the man he killed, and it becomes a strong part of him thorughout his life, at the time of it, and afterwards. He writes war stories because it seems it is the only thing he really can do to show people the effects of the war, and what the fellow characters went through. He always mentions the struggles of his fellow soldiers. "But in a story, which is kind of dreaming, the dead sometimes smile and sit up and return to the world". This sounds like somewhat of a theme, and the narrator is the one who says it.
Since I'm the last one writing here, I thought it was pretty hard saying something someone hadn't already said. So I sat down and did some thinking....and some more until after reading Ms. Levine's original post like a thousand times. Then it all suddenly clicked. She mentioned the Cinderella story, how there would be no story without the step sisters. Now one reason they are so important is because they are so different from the main character...sort of like cinderella's foil characters. Whatever they do, we know Cinderella wont do. Now you bloggers might be asking, "why is this relevant?" Well, here's why:
Despite each characters individuality, they all somehow relate to Tim. Norman Bowker, Kiowa, Ted Lavender, etc. all have an essence of what Tim already represents. The guilt, the embarrasment, the beliefs are all part of Tim, as well. So why would you need these characters when u have the narrator himself representing what this characters seem to represent. Now, dont get me wrong, they are all still very crucial to the story but in terms of deciding which character brings that extra spice, I think i'd have to go with Elroy Berdahl. Elroy on the other hand is very different from the majority of characters in the novel, perhaps even different from our whole society. Without questions and without any prejudice, he opened a door of choices for Tim. Unlike most people would of done, as Tim recalls, "In all that time together, all those hours, he never asked the obvious questions: Why was i there? Why was I alone? Why so preoccupied?"(49)He certainly never FORCED Tim into making any specific choice as Ashely Hart had said. Tim couldn't have possibly thought that in any way Berdahl was forcing him to go to war. After all, Berdahl himself gave him an envelope with $200 as an emergency fund, meaning, in case he wanted to run away. I mean, if anything, Berdahl gave him that peace of mind that no one else would of been able to offer him. He was the only one that didnt left him a guilt, a worry, or a bad memory; Tim remembers him as the only one who "...never put me in a position that required andy lies or denials."(51) Most importantly though, as I mentioned before, the one main thing Berdahl offers him is the liberty to have options and make a choice. Right when they are fishing at the Rainy River, the whole scenerio is illustrated as a pool of limitless choices, of misteries, of the many things unknown. Tim was left with a lake full of fishes and of course, all Tim had to do was catch the fish that was meant for him. Like Tim says, "All around us, I remember, there was a vastness to the world...just the trees and the sky and the water reaching out toward nowhere." (55)
Hence, I'd say Berdahl was, next to the narrator, the most important character in the book. His uniqueness and willingness to help wihtout anythin exchange gave the book the starting point to an oddysey full of choices and regrets. He definately holds something pure and dear that no other has.
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